Host: Good afternoon, dear listeners. A special edition, a special interview, a special person: Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu, Director of the Foreign Intelligence Service.

Thank you for participating in this capacity and in this international and domestic context, when the concerns of each and every Romanian, as European citizen, focus on understanding what he should do to overcome the economic downturn more easily, how to defend himself against thieves, robberies, plans, crimes and traffickers and how to make his way, here or anywhere else in the world, yet proud of being a Romanian citizen, almost equal to others and not feeling ashamed, aggressed, humiliated and embarrassed, as an eternal prisoner of his own burdensome heritage. He, his family or someone in his family were born in a communist Romania , some time in the 45 years of communism, while others in his generation were born in capitalism, during a freedom of speech the ones behind the curtain were not entitled to. By the way, can we still talk about the Iron Curtain nowadays?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Ms Ilieş, let me begin by thanking you for the invitation, by greeting your colleagues - it has always been a great pleasure to come to the Radio Romania Actualitati - and all those listening to us at the moment.

Host: We also thank you, and how should I say… We appreciate your transparency and your coming here, in our studio, to approach some issues about the SIE.

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Thank you. I’ll say as much as I can, I hope everyone will be pleased in the end. As for the Iron Curtain, we can no longer talk about it; the Iron Curtain is a vestige of the past. Some time ago, we left behind 1989 and the great socio-political and geopolitical changes of the end of that decade. However, as for what you were saying in the beginning, there is an Iron Curtain between the good side and the bad side of the world, between those who build, who wish that all the people who are honest, hard-working and good-willed to live peacefully, and those who, unfortunately, - always in a small number hopefully – use the peace that the democracy is building in order to commit crimes. There is always going to be an Iron Curtain between the good and the bad side of the world.

Host: So, what you’re saying is that the perceptions, the reactions to Romania we are witnessing these days are a clarification of good and evil in the Romanian society?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: We can undoubtedly come to such a thought and I am tempted to answer you in a fairly biased way, all the more so as, like you, like many of those who are now listening to us, I myself studied in foreign schools, I lived abroad for quite a while and I do know what it means to work hard and honestly to serve, first and foremost, the national representation and, needless to say, Romanians’ moral representation. I believe someone honest has nothing to be afraid of, I believe that a person of good will is principled anywhere in the world, on any geographic coordinates, and that value, whether we are talking about professional value or the observance of ethical standards or laws, is, in its turn, recognized. We and others in the national intelligence community are working for those who think this way and for those who understand that correct behaviour, in compliance with the laws of the host country, is the guarantee and the condition that will allow them to attain their own goals. We work as hard as we can, depending on our resources, with great dedication, by actually turning to good account the same ethical principle that the good people always observe, and that is patriotism. And I hope that this does not sound excessively pathetic coming from me.

Host: The daily events and their dynamics, the sequence of actions, the reactions of the democratic institutions, the public political statements, well, the public opinion, their lack of reaction, the lack of statements trigger frustrations at some point. More and more often the question “Is this a conspiracy?” generates speculative answers such as “Certainly, there is no other way, it has been known for a long time, etc.”. I want to ask you: from the standpoint of the SIE and you, as Director of the Foreign Intelligence Service, which are the threats posed to Romania at this juncture in time? Is there any conspiracy against us? How do you see this succession of actions in the past 20 years, so unusual for us, the Romanian people?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I admit that we have increased sensitivity for the political consequences or the effects on the image, the negative effects on the image triggered by certain anti-social deeds. I reiterate that most people of good faith have nothing to worry about. However, this sensitivity, undoubtedly educated by the fairly hectic way in which the news flows to us nowadays, should not lead us to a consequence, to a conclusion like the one you have expressed, the existence of a universal plot. This is incorrect reasoning…

Host: …No, it may be, and now I am not expressing my viewpoint, I am somehow the bearer of a message of, let’s say, medium or general frustrations.

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: That is, I do continue to believe and I stoutly reiterate this, a false perception that appears rather because of the lack of information or due to the fact that complex reasoning has always been difficult, since it implies not just a word, a fast line, but reasoning. Yet, this does not mean that there are no national interests.

Detached from the context you have evoked, you may be certain that all states have national interests, all states will seek to serve their own interests, but the most valuable thing in the current European and trans-Atlantic policy, with new NATO and EU members, is the very partnership we have with all these colleagues from the two great Clubs. Fortunately, when it comes to its own security, Romania is in a far better situation than it was, let’s say, 20 years ago. However, the threats are still out there and for certain types of threats, an institution, such as the Foreign Intelligence Service, must take action, must be present abroad and must yield results. I will give you an example I think all our listeners will find it easy to understand. We have children. We do not like our children to return from school and tell us how one gives drugs in the schools’ lavatory, in the garden or in the school’s backyard. This is one of the reasons for which I am telling you, as clearly as possible, that international drug trafficking, illegal human trafficking, trafficking in prohibited goods, whether these are armament or radioactive materials, all these are real, tangible threats posed to Romania and its security and, to the same extent, to the security of the political structures we are members of, whether it is the Alliance or the European Union. This is one of the topics the SIE is dealing with and on which it is focusing a great part of its energy. What else does this mean? We are no longer witnessing anti-social deeds that may be described, in our jargon, as representing elements of minor offences. We are not talking about thefts, isolated incidents that occur because some people show a lack of respect for the law.

We are talking about very well organized networks, which cross the national borders, capitalize on the freedom, the liberties we enjoy, for instance, in the EU realm, and use our political, economic, social gains to actually bring the evil among us. Fighting organized crime, trafficking in drugs, armament or human beings is a particularly important goal for us. We cannot attain this on our own, we are in a family, we work together with others like us, like the members of this institution, we work in partnership, in cooperation with other structures of the national defence system, because only unity makes the strength in this case. The threats are tangible, significant, and given their consequences, of vital importance. Have you noticed I did not mention terrorism? It belongs to the same category, in terms of both dimension and possible effects. Yet, it represents a completely different type of organized crime.

Host: Speaking of which, Gribenco, a very dangerous individual, was seized last night. We hear that not only is he very dangerous, but also very well trained, including in the counterintelligence field. Hence, our penchant for mysteries, secrets, and so on. I will ask you a concrete question: how many dangerous people like this individual – we don’t know the exact number of citizenships he may have – suspected of shooting 3 citizens in Brasov , are there on our territory? Is it assessed that others might come as well? Has Romania somehow changed from a turning table, a country of transit into … an organized crime importer, exporter?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Romania is located, and I only reiterate an already public conclusion, at the confluence of organized crime routes. First of all, it is the geographic position that facilitates the transit, for instance the transit of narcotics, drugs from the Far East, from Afghanistan – a major opium producer – to Western Europe. These routes cross both our country and other neighbouring states. There was a time, until 7 or 8 years ago, when Romania was, unfortunately, listed among states likely to pose a threat, not in terms of drugs but of illegal human trafficking, for instance. However, meanwhile, through successive reforms within the integral parts of the national security system, through successive attempts to align key ministries, such as the Interior Ministry, to security standards, we are now in a better situation that allows performance in countering such plagues. To what extent can one defend everything, that I cannot answer at the moment, because there will always be something else. We should not even think that, in its turn, organized crime lacks a remarkable adjusting capability. It will use the laws of the countries it is interested in. It will capitalise on the contexts that can bring it more energy, more social support. Once drug trafficking goes via a country which is faced with a deep economic, social, mentality crisis, be sure that the social negative effects are higher and almost logical, we can realize the consequences.

Host: However, I would like to ask you a concrete thing. Now, when people are a bit confused, we are all confused about what is going on, let’s say, on television, from where everything was translated to the public, in this context, what does the SIE actually do? The intelligence services are needed. We have more super-bodyguards than policemen. Employees are still wanted. What does the SIE do for Romania ’s national security?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Madam, I will give you the summary of the first article in the current law on the functioning of the SIE which, paradoxically, is also the most recent law – passed in 1998-, the latest of all laws regarding either parts or the national defence and the security system as a whole.

It is the Romanian state body that has exclusive competence in collecting intelligence from outside Romania, information able to prevent or describe the direct threats to the national integrity, to Romania ’s security, to the political statute of the country.

Host: Therefore, I am reading from the presentation on your website. Among the objectives, there is the early warning of risks and threats, strategic assessments of the international security environment, conducting operations to safeguard, support and promote Romania ’s interests. Indeed, we hear these words all the time. Yet, can you give us a concrete example, at your own choosing, because I have only mean questions to ask you. However, I would like to ask you to disregard the fact that I am journalist and I, in my turn, through my questions and your capacity. Let us take a concrete example, at your choice. Strategic assessments, supporting, promoting Romania ’s interests. What are, let’s say, the ingredients of your activity? Working with other institutions, the partnerships, both foreign and internal. Think of a case…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Do you want to talk specifically about the activity of an espionage service?

Host: Now, certainly, if you can also mention a couple of spies, so…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: No, Madam. So, this is an espionage service. This should be very clear. And every modern state needs this sensitive excrescence of its own structure, able to prevent threats, next to counter them and, as much as possible, drive them away.

Host: Excuse me, what does a spy mean nowadays? Because in our past, even in the mass media’s past, a spy was working with secrets. Whereas now, most secrets, sooner or later, can be publicly found. All these are tackled in think-tanks, in organized, academic groups. Sooner or later, strategic directions… So, what does a spy mean and how to you separate yourselves from this world of, lets’ say, public, even exclusivist analysis?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: The easiest for me is to put it this way: a spy resumes - from where a journalist stops - an investigation on issues you may be familiar with. Because all over the world, no matter how transparent social or political dynamics were, there is always a reserve of elements, reasons, pretexts, conclusions, grounds which cannot become public. Secrets do not have, do not represent the absolute essential knowledge. Yet, most of the times, with careful reading, secrets can provide guidance and can be the main ingredient of the political decision if used fairly and timely. In democracy, having access to the information that can give you at least a slight idea about the directions the world is heading to, about the future, means a lot more than a post-factum analysis on public elements. I don’t think anyone questions what Bacon said several hundreds of years ago: “Knowledge is power”. And each and every state tries to get the power, in order to remain strong, to survive and promote its own interests. And this is exactly what this Service does.

Host: I see. Sure, it’s much too complicated to say that I have got a piece of news from you. But you can give me a piece of news now. In this select club of intelligence services, what partnerships does Romania chiefly have? We have therefore built a relation of cooperation in the past 20 years since we are no longer communists, we are subordinated to them. Do we give them the information they ask for, do they take us at their decision table, allowing us to find out what is going on around us?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I can tell you some things. I do not know if it’ll make the headlines, but I can tell you things that will show you what our accession to the North-Atlantic Alliance and the EU actually meant in terms of immediate effects. It meant that the Foreign Intelligence Service joined a family of equals, of services with a similar goal and counterpart structures, of services sharing confidence, confidence tested in time, with which the SIE can exchange intelligence information – just like between people, confidence is built with difficulty; therefore, this level was achieved through successive adjustments; with such services, once a mature cooperation is reached, joint operations can be conducted. From the viewpoint of a foreign intelligence service, the most important gain brought by Romania’s accession to NATO and the EU is the fact that the Service is not alone, is not isolated; it is part of a network of similar services, with which it exchanges a lot of intelligence, to which it relates horizontally, and with which it shares the same professional jargon. In other words, we are defended not only because there is a service, but because there are several states whose services observe truthfully the whole meaning of the Washington Treaty - that is mutual defence. There is something else that needs to be said: we, in our turn, defend the security of other NATO member states, because we receive services and we provide services for others. Furthermore, I need to say that the foreign intelligence services are generally acknowledged - in terms of their professionalism - through their membership in restricted circles as well; there are such restricted clubs. And the SIE is proud to state that the adoption of the service, its presence within such clubs, where there are services with long tradition and professional capability, with infinitely more resources than us, has represented the recognition of the Service’s genuine, modern qualities, of its efficiency and professionalism. Such clubs – you will not hear people talking about them too often…

Host: We can find some of them on the Internet, or at least, based on the conspiracy theory, we assume that…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: These clubs are only the meeting place of those services which are devoted, through their action, to democracy and, equally, to the political families they belong to, whether we are talking about NATO or the EU.

Host: You have reached a sensitive point and I am very curious – we are drawing to a close and I have 4 more questions to ask you… You were talking about the Law on the SIE, Law no. 1/1998. We were talking back then, in those years, about the integration into NATO; it was after the Madrid Summit. And we were forced to have a law on the SIE’s functioning and organization. Yet, we go back to Law no. 182/2002 on the access to classified information and, according to your law, the one passed in 1998, including the Law on national security of March 1991… By the way, a short answer: when do you think the new laws on security will be adopted?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I would love to be able to give you an answer, as short and …

Host: We would like to receive one as well, because we have had numerous shows…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: … because it is in everybody’s interest. A set of laws to coherently address all problems existing in our national defence system, is extremely necessary. We need a body of laws to acknowledge the current situation, Romania’s new geo-political statute, the new problems the special services are faced with, and, last but not least, the types of structural adjustment, of structural reform through which these components, these services have passed. But we function on a legal framework that has been disproportionately adopted in time – some in 1991, a framework law which is today overloaded with ambiguity for what our necessities represent nowadays…

Host: Indeed, that law is a mystery. Actually, we could not be speaking at the moment…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: It is ambiguous… It is essential to clarify it, because the activity needs legal support, it needs limits. The law equally defends both the citizen member of a democratic society and the citizen employed in such a service.

Host: However, those laws do not give you…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: They are now in the Parliament, I forgot to tell you. They are in the Parliament and we are waiting to see when they are passed.

Host: We are speaking today in the government about criminal codes, also demanded probably…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: It is a major step and I have to say that I do share the emotion Minister of Justice Predoiu feels regarding the stake with this draft laws.

Host: I would feel the same emotion if you told me whether, according to the Law no. 182/2002, corroborated with the law passed in 1991, your law no. 98, the Oversight Parliamentary Committee for the SIE would not actually be entitled to control the institution you are running; this would be called political influence, that is politicians would pry into the workroom of an intelligence service. And then I ask you, can we talk about political influence exerted on your service?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Not only can we not talk about political influence on the Service. A Service’s credibility is far too important to waste resources in illicit activities – and this should be very well understood. Domestic policy stays at an astronomical distance from any activity of an intelligence service. This is the law and this is how it should be, because it is not the domestic policy that should interfere, to interfere directly in the activity of an intelligence service. The relation between domestic policy, this time seen at the strategic level, and these parts of the Executive, which are the special services, is of a totally different nature. It adjusts by means of the existing legal mechanisms, whether we are talking about the government, about decisions or activities of the CSAT (the Country’s Supreme Defence Council), that regulates and directs the special services’ activities and, obviously, the Parliament. The conclusion you have reached, you implied that…

Host: What I imply is also based on the statements you and SRI Director George Maior made during the meeting you had with the civil society at the Howard Johnson two weeks ago. The press perceived it as a desperate cry of the two directors regarding a possible political interference. Please correct us.

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Obviously, I will correct you and I will do this as clearly and firmly as possible. First of all, I can only speak for myself, but I am certain that my colleague, George Maior, feels the same – it is not about political interference. We never accuse the political interference, because there is not such thing. We do not receive phone calls. Nobody is dismissed, no one comes to our door to ask for political results. We have reached the certainty of a concrete, legal, honest, fair relation with the political decision-maker as a whole – this can be verified through the activity of the parliamentary committees. Here is what we are saying: there always has to be responsibility, because the services’ responsibility is to collect intelligence information, whilst the political decision-makers’ responsibility is to use it properly in order to serve the nation’s interest. And any director of an intelligence service will always say this: there is always need for responsibility; use what is brought to you, because there is always need for improvement. And this is a brick in the construction of large projects, for everyone to enjoy later on. As for the parliamentary committees, they are and should be oversight bodies. They have access to information, they have the right to verify it, the possibility to do this at their own pace, according to their own calendar and depending on the Parliament’s interest. One has never claimed that a Service cannot be controlled. On the contrary. The Services themselves need this control so as to prove to everybody, once more, that they abide by the law.

Host: I am glad that you are so confident when talking about these things. You are, first of all, a diplomat, a public figure…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Madam, I am an honest man.

Host: Yes, you are. And I can only end with a personal question. The interview you gave on March 26, 2008, confirmed that you were the artisan of organizing the NATO Summit in Bucharest . But we also learnt that you watched the works of the Summit on TV in your office. You brought two reasons as arguments for your staying aside: the heads of the intelligence services do not publicly get involved in this kind of events; the second reason is that, “I know too many people there to force them to shake hands with me” – you were saying. These two worlds are separated by a definite line. I am asking you, does your current position make you feel sidelined or does it fit you?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I have never asked myself whether I am sidelined or whether it fits me. I am glad I have the opportunity to hold such a position. It is, for me, personally, an outstanding opportunity to enrich myself intellectually and get a better understanding of what makes the world go round, generally speaking. As for the separation of the worlds, be sure this is only in the most delicate and polite way possible. Everybody minds his own business. And there is one more thing I would like to say, this time as a correction to your first remark: I was not the artisan. I am glad I am among the many people who worked together for this success called the Bucharest NATO Summit.

Host: Thank you very much. The press deemed you the artisan, alongside other institutions, but it was you who came up with the idea. Thank you very much for your participation, for this special interview, for this special edition. We would like to wish you success in this activity which you seem to enjoy. We are looking forward to meeting you again!

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Thank you very much, Madam.

Host: Goodbye.