Jurnalul Naţional: A case of espionage, involving one Romanian and one foreign citizen, is now in progress. Has the Foreign Intelligence Service also lent a hand in solving this case?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Any question pertaining to the case which is now covered by the media has to be asked to the relevant institutions. As this is an investigation in progress, it is obviously the Public Prosecutor’s Office you should be asking.

Jurnalul Naţional: When you were a foreign minister you were the recipient of the intelligence provided by the SIE. Now it’s the other way around: you work for the legal customers of the intelligence information obtained by the spies in your subordination. How do you feel in this position, as a man who manipulates information?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: First of all, we do not manipulate information. The Foreign Intelligence Service provides intelligence information that can underpin a decision at the level of competence required by the country’s institutional layout. The intelligence information is collected, analysed, recorded and then distributed according to the mandate of the political decision-makers. It comes only natural to understand that, in the absence of a valuable intelligence input, the political decision loses essence and the targeted effect. In this case, the responsibility for providing information lies with the institution I represent. I mean verified and actionable information. The responsibility to integrate it into a broader political concept, in a decision, lies with the relevant decision maker. It is national interest that must be ultimately served by this pair of responsibilities.

When information meets indifference, frustration is the effect

Jurnalul Naţional: Is the SIE satisfied with the feedback it gets from the legal customers of the intelligence it provides?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: The answer to this question comes as a continuation of the previous one. For the activity of an intelligence service to be adjusted at its best, it is essential that feedback, in other words the response from the political decision-makers after receiving the information, be as substantial and specific as possible, so that, for instance, the area of investigation could zoom in and quality should prevail over quantity.

Feedback is important, as it helps focus the activity on precise topics, therefore making the investigation go deeper, forcing it to be extensive and, implicitly, top quality. The second thing to be mentioned here is that feedback is not a legal obligation, but it is a moral one, as intelligence information is short-lived. If it is not rapidly processed, when decisions have to be made, it wears out and becomes useless.

A rapid succession of responses to the information that is directed towards the customer crystallizes political decision-making and makes it more likely to be successful. Any intelligence service, so much more an espionage one, would like to see the response circle close as often and from as many customers as possible. We are now talking in system analysis terms.

Jurnalul Naţional: And what if there is no response from the customer?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Every time information hits against silence or indifference, the natural effect is frustration. Furthermore, in espionage, a piece of intelligence is obtained with great (intellectual, psychic, physical) efforts, by employing resources, sometimes costly ones. And we are not talking money only, but it could also be time or people. Collecting intelligence is costly. And the value of this piece of information is, most of the times, directly proportional to the resources involved. Not taking into account the investment the state makes in gleaning intelligence means wasting public money. There is also intelligence information which carries price tags that are not expressed in money, in tangible values.

Jurnalul Naţional: They are expressed in what instead?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: In human lives on the edge. The sooner you realize that such a cost could become, at any time, a real, practical one, the better you understand what is the moral nature of the political decision-makers’ responsibility.

People are vulnerable. Some cost more, others cost less.

Jurnalul Naţional: Going back to this current espionage case. Shall I understand that the small amounts of money received by our “defector”, around 1,000 dollars per delivery, were not paid for intelligence of utmost importance?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I suggest we stay out of what we see on TV and stick to broader judgement. There is information for which an important range of resources are used. There are also ways to collect information effortlessly. The net is sometimes tightly knit, other times it is loosely knit. And information is obtained one way or the other, directly or indirectly, through or without technical devices. From people, nonetheless. And people are vulnerable. Some of them cost more, others cost less. Some are after comfort, others are just naïve.

Jurnalul Naţional: Are you employing people? I took a quick look at the Foreign Intelligence Service’s website and noticed that you have a section where one can apply for a job. Aren’t you on a budget, due to the crisis?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Yes, we do take on new people. And it’s not about budget. Our recruitment system is very selective and, so as to give an approximate figure, out of 1,000 applicants, only eight are selected for specialised training. Our own specialised training system takes into account the need for general knowledge in the field and the need for specialization. But the training of a SIE employee is not confined to this preliminary stage. A professional, therefore a true employee, is formed in at least five years and, in order to reach professional maturity, which guarantees performance, statistics point at around 10 years of work experience. To be a spy, one needs external experience, contextual experience, and plenty other qualities that go beyond the institutional education framework and that come up according to circumstances.

Jurnalul Naţional: Has it ever occurred to employ someone who was curious or bold enough to post their CV on the website?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Well, of course. Actually, most CVs reach us through these online forms. Most of those interested in a career with the Foreign Intelligence Service use the website. This is actually the first sieve for those who head for the SIE, as they have to be Internet users, at least.

Of course, this is easy, but at least they are not computer illiterates. This is also the easiest way to apply. But the modern procedures for recruitment, selection, training, professional assessment, contests for management positions are validated through the general reconstruction process undergone by the institution several years ago.

This turned the SIE into what it is today, through performance in recruitment, into a service providing HUMINT know-how to other partner services in NATO and the European Union.

Philosophy has changed. We pick our people according to our needs and not the other way around, in our selection process. But when we find the right person, we continuously upgrade him, up to the moment when he completely meets our necessities. Employment is not a usual routine, given that our service’s activity is built on priorities, it invests in lines of action. That is why recruitment takes priorities into account, which forces us to permanently assess our institutional needs. Not to speak about the obsession of any human resources manager to have as many new entries as retirements. Balance is as important here as it is in any other institution.

Jurnalul Naţional: Why is 35 the maximum age to be accepted in here?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Legally speaking, because this is the age imposed by the Military Statute, as the upper threshold for joining the officers’ corps. And also because one usually finds one’s way in life up to the age of 35. One cannot join the SIE as the last resort before admitting the failure of one’s destiny. The career itself is outstanding, not like any other one, and cannot be understood as linear. One cannot think about retirement on the first day of this job. This is the very remote point.

Our human resources are deeply rejuvenated, due to favourable demographic conditions, as the SIE reform overlapped the change of a generation and, therefore, the change in its experience, perception and habits. There has been a strong renewal at the command level. It is very important that legitimate leaders have emerged, legitimized by their professional expertise. Furthermore, what the SIE guarantees is a career that can be quantified according to transparent criteria, not stringed by administrative interference, a thing that is very rare in Romania.

There has been a change of generation. There are now different professionalism standards.

Jurnalul Naţional: All we can hear about is the “urge for reform”. Even when it comes to “Services”, as the SIE and the SRI have always been put “in one basket”. Mr. Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu, what does reform actually mean for a foreign intelligence service such as the SIE?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: The reform of an espionage service means rebuilding it according to an already tested working model, able to ensure performance, to guarantee performance while using its human, logistical, financial and time resources at their best, and which would allow the professional development of the institution in another political context, brought about by Romania’s NATO and EU membership.

Jurnalul Naţional: When Romania became a member of the Alliance, the SIE entered a network of counterpart services, which equally serve their national interests and back the Alliance’s common policies. They provide security to their own countries, as well as to other partner states within NATO.

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: This network where communication among partners is carried out horizontally, among equals, would have been impossible, had the SIE not been de-structured and rebuilt in such a manner that common professional language and technical routine exist. One of the stakes of rebuilding the SIE was also to ensure the credibility of such an institution in the solid partnership network inside NATO and the EU. And the service was rebuilt with such an effect to amplify its own actions that we are now present everywhere and the quality of the SIE’s activity is recognized among partners and was proved by joint operations, which are really the best way to measure genuine cooperation.

The SIE does not talk and has never talked about reform, as we are actually undergoing a continuous process of adjusting our capabilities to the standards we have to meet and responsibilities we have. The basis is different, it is a much more flexible system, shaped up on a western pattern, with western habits, which operates in various environments, independently or in partnerships, with a good image.

Jurnalul Naţional: Reform also brings along the wish for “rejuvenation”. These terms are almost worn out, that much have they been invoked during the post-revolution years! In the world’s hot spots, such as the Middle East, who would suit best, the young spies or Ceausescu’s seasoned ones?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Generally speaking, it is recommendable to have experienced intelligence officers who could use as much as possible from their full-maturity energy. Spies do not pop up overnight, they take years to form and, practically, their professional existence is more and more valuable as years go by, but, unfortunately, energy fades as well. Youth is not always a plus.

The generation change has occurred. Standards are different, the professionalism threshold is different and we have to turn other ages to good account.

We have no Hollywood where I can flaunt our successes

Jurnalul Naţional: The SIE, just like any other services and state institutions, has faced two repatriations of Romanian citizens and not only, during the conflicts in Lebanon and Gaza. Please, tell me, are these operations risk-free for our security? Have you seen to it that no Hamas or Hezbollah activist be among those who took refuge here?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: These types of operations are just a share of the activity of the Romanian consulates and consular sections. Obviously, the SIE has always been sensitive to any expected hazard before it could reach the vicinity of Romania. But to such a specific question I can only answer that through concerted efforts by the SIE and by other state institutions that deal directly with terrorism inside Romania, it is quite unlikely that imported terrorist cells breed in our country. Nonetheless, we shall never say that we are completely out of risk, but everything that could have possibly been done, was done.

Jurnalul Naţional: How are the SIE’s victories and defeats quantified?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: First of all, through the quality of information, therefore, through the quality of the decision-maker’s response, whenever there is one. Through the extent to which it counts in the political decision-making. Because, actually, this is our merchandise: information. At the same time, we can talk about victories or failures from multiple vantage points: the ratio between the value of the information and its costs. Be they physical or human… The ratio between the value of the information and the time it took to be obtained.

Jurnalul Naţional: And what does failure mean for the SIE?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: It means costs. Costs which did not match the intrinsic value of information, the failure of an operation, human losses.

Jurnalul Naţional: This means that we have had, better said has the SIE had, any human losses these latest years?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Yes, this service has its heroes, too. Anonymous heroes, whose existence is only known by two, three colleagues, and whose lives we will never be able to talk about. We have no Hollywood, so that I can flaunt our successes. I lack the image vector, as there is a communication restriction that the Service has to comply with. I’ve never said I needed a Hollywood, I just notice its absence.

Jurnalul Naţional: Mr. Ungureanu, what are the dangers daunting on this country?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: The dangers which are tangible through their social effects: drug trade, human trafficking, arms or banned materials trafficking, and terrorism. In other words, cross-border organised crime, which is much more adaptable today than 20 years ago to the technological progress and to the legal framework of the states where it operates. These are real threats which can be described in quantity terms.

Intercepting and penetrating a drug trade network outside Romania, before its products reach our country, could sometimes take years of hard work, engage massive resources, is based on partnerships, in which you can only go wrong once. This is because, if we fail, evil will immediately reorganize. You cannot afford to go wrong twice.

And the visible result is the drugs shipment intercepted on the frontier. We are happy when the Border Police or other bodies authorised to act internally in such cases report something like this. The SIE’s victories cannot be made public, it’s impossible. Failures stand more chances to leak out. Leaving aside wide-scale operations or long-run projects, success often means three words, a sentence.

Jurnalul Naţional: When you watch TV talk-shows, do you only see analysts or do you also spot collaborators?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I see fiction galore.

Jurnalul Naţional: The heads of espionage services become heads of state or of government in many countries. Do you believe in this model? Do you have a personal leaning for this kind of development?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Each democracy with its own options.