The current director of the Foreign Intelligence Service of Romania (SIE) speaks about the risk of being a spy, about his first passion, the academic career, which he does not want to give up even if he is constrained by time and about why the service needs a new law that regulates its functioning.  

In Mihai Răzvan Ungureanu’s office the TV sets are always switched on a classical music channel. “We do not work with pre-chewed intelligence”, he says smiling. 

He has been the Director of the Foreign Intelligence Service since 2007 and the flawless diplomacy that characterizes him, in this position, fits him like a glove. On February 8, the SIE celebrates 20 years since its establishment, but there will be no press conference to mark the Service’s achievements. 

What is secret must be kept secret. This is Ungureanu’s message and after I turn off the recorder he adds: „What we do not know is who killed Kennedy…”

Reporter: It is said that espionage is the art of the impossible. What does a Foreign Intelligence Service spy do?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: He collects intelligence. (He laughs)

Reporter: Do you find the comparison with 007 unrealistic?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I do, to a certain extent. Collecting intelligence is for a SIE employee the exact type of activity that becomes relevant from the moment when an investigative journalist cannot go any further, or when a diplomat cannot go on. Unlike the investigative journalist and the diplomat, the spy has no obligation to comply with other laws outside the boundaries of his country.  

Reporter: What happens if, during his mission, a spy is uncovered and becomes subject to the laws of that country? 

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: If something like this happens, it means he has made a mistake. If he made a mistake, he also has the capacity to solve the situation on his own.

Reporter: You mean he can escape, for example…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Theoretically, yes. Nevertheless, we do not train people to be uncovered. But we do train them for the situation when something like this might happen. 

Reporter: Has it happened so far?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: It does happen, it is one of the risks. The underground war is fought between spies and counterespionage.

Reporter: Can you mention a point from the latest report which you submitted to the President?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I can refer to the topics within the threats chapter. Cross-border trafficking in human beings, drugs or weapons. Cross-border organized crime. Romania is on the route of the organized crime flows. We are not alone, we are on the European Union’s Eastern border, and our allies are interested in this aspect as much as we are. Because everything that is bad and comes from the East, from Central Asia or the CIS, stops at our border.  

Reporter: As for the threats coming from other states. Let’s take, for example, Iran’s long range ballistic missiles … 

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Allow me to refrain from being that specific, because I do not want to refer to a particular state. However, I can tell you that anything that can turn into a threat represents a concern for us.

Reporter: On a scale of 1 to 5, what is the threat in this case?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: If you refer to the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, the threat is relatively big. I find it difficult to attach a number to it. Nothing happens without consequences. We are living in a world where foreign policy is no longer pursued within very restricted areas, but within very large areas. 

Reporter: Do you cooperate with foreign services in this area?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: We cooperate with all the services that are allied to us within the North Atlantic Alliance or within the European Union. It is one of the dimensions that the current laws do not outline. And this is a reason why we need to implement a new law in the field.

Reporter: Does it go up to the ultimate sacrifice?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: It can happen, indeed.

Reporter: Did it happen during the rescue of the Romanian journalists?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I will not speak about this episode, but I can tell you that there are missions that entail extreme personal risk. That can end badly. Every intelligence service has such events in its biography. 

Reporter: Retired colonel Ionel Dragomir, a former SIE employee, has recently stated that the journalists’ kidnapping was conducted by the foreign secret services, and that our services helped them. How do you comment?   

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I am not in the position to comment what is said in the public area.

Reporter: He is a former employee of the service that you are leading.

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: And a free citizen who can say anything.

Reporter: It is said that a contract with a secret service never expires…

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: We are not in the position to comment what is said on TV or what is written in newspapers. The activity is subject to very strict secrecy regulations and what goes public is neither our responsibility nor our problem.  

Reporter: What would SIE do if a former employee thought of writing an autobiographical book in which to tell how exciting it was in this Service?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: We will see while reading the book. (He laughs) When classified information appears in the book, the Prosecutor’s Office automatically takes over the case. I think I indirectly answered another question you have asked earlier. Other than that, we read with pleasure.

Reporter: Why has this file been classified as secret for 50 years? It is a unique case for the past 20 years in Romania.

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: The activity of the national security institutions complies with the legal provisions on confidentiality and secrecy. So it is absolutely natural.  

Reporter: Do you miss the visibility from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: No, I don’t. Being visible is not my purpose in life.

Reporter: Does this position suit you more, now that you have disappeared from the public area?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I take anything that comes along with the position of SIE Director without any frustration or complex. It is an administrative position, like my former position as Minister of Foreign Affairs, at the upper decision making level, just like the current one, but this is not my only life. I have another life at the university. 

Reporter: Do you still have time for research?  

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I make time.

Reporter: Can this access to information help you, at some point, to draft a thesis, an academic work?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Not the intelligence that SIE deals with. However, in terms of the intellectual effect, it is indeed extraordinary, because you have a better understanding of what makes the world turn. It is not only what you see on the surface but also what is beyond that.

Reporter: What will you do after this, or you are not thinking about “life after SIE” yet?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: I really do not think about it. Because I do not count my days according to the positions I hold. However, I can tell you that I know what I will do when I meet my students again or when I am amid my papers. That is my other life. 

Reporter: In the end, even if you are not a spy, you live a double life.

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Obviously, these are two different things, but I am still an academic. If I had abandoned the academic activity I would have betrayed myself. 

Reporter: Is this your first calling?

Mihai-Răzvan Ungureanu: Let’s say that it is what I actually am.

Brief CV

He was born on September 22, 1968.

He graduated the Faculty of History and Philosophy, at “Al. I. Cuza” University, Iaşi.                                     

1998-2001 Secretary of State in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

2004-2007 Minister of Foreign Affairs of Romania